Wicca Wiccan

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – | | | <snip | | It seems to me that you’re concerned about someone potentially | "getting away" with some negative action. All I can say to that is we | each live the life we choose, and that includes the 1st choice – to | incarnate. | | Is it your belief that beings choose when and how to incarnate? How does | that work?  Is it restricted to humans? | | I’ve heard such an idea before but never really had it explained to me well. | | I don’t know Just leave it at that- you don’t. Stop trying to foist your bullshit off on people. In this particular case, I asked for his opinion … no foisting required. Figinn You have to remember that fOt is still tied into the xtian idea of a single incarnation, and can’t discuss "karma" from any other mindset.

I must admit I have not given much thought to the issue, myself.  I’m far more worried at present with my current incarnation … hehe. I guess overall I believe in the possibility of the concept but I see more "levels" of existence than just this one to keep returning to.  This doesn’t necessarily mean a "heaven" but just other places (per se) to go. Figinn

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – While I’ve been ARW AWOL I’ve had time to contemplate some things and on my return thought I’d put my wonderings out there for….comments Personally I do not believe in cosmic karma, I believe that karma is self-created either through guilt (for example) or more positive emotions (for good karma).  If someone does not believe in karma how does one feel the effect of something negative or irresponsible that they have done. Is it as simple as living with the consequences? I believe it can be as simple as that, yes. That is normally how I have though except for the when the ppl involved do not appear to care about the consequences.  The term "reap what you have sown" or it "coming back to bite you" come to mind when someone "suffers" for what they have done even though they didn’t care about the negatively that they put out there. It is possible that ppl can avoid consequences by those around them for any variety of reasons. I think we see that happening all the time.  Those that believe in karma might string together unrelated situations, however, to provide punishment for an action that wasn’t so clear cut.  The fact that one spread rumours about a co-worker might be linked with the fact that the person’s car broke down on the way home that day.  My own belief is that the car would have broken down anyway but there are plenty that don’t hold my same belief. *nods* I have a tendency to not believe in coincidences however I do see what you are saying and agree that ppl who do believe in strongly in the notion of karma do tend to string things together that may have nothing to do with the situation at hand. If there was a such thing as cosmic karma than more ppl would suffer the consequences of their behaviors rather than having them buffered by other things. There are considerable implications in any proposed karmic system, in the way of reward and punishment.  In my experience those occurances labeled as karma could be merely the inevitable consequences of certain behaviors. In other words, act like a bully long enough and somebody bigger than you is gonna come along and kick your ass … hehe. Very true!  But why does the bigger bully come along and kick your ass?  Why do some bullies get their asses kicked and others do not?  Inevitable consequence…what is inevitable, I wonder

No matter how big a bully is, their is always someone who can bully him. You may not see that happening, but it happens. One of the biggest bullies I ever knew, was terrified of his wife, who was half his size, Shez. — Shez’s Garden at http://www.oldcity.f2s.com/shez/

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – While I’ve been ARW AWOL I’ve had time to contemplate some things and on my return thought I’d put my wonderings out there for….comments Personally I do not believe in cosmic karma, I believe that karma is self-created either through guilt (for example) or more positive emotions (for good karma).  If someone does not believe in karma how does one feel the effect of something negative or irresponsible that they have done. Is it as simple as living with the consequences? I believe it can be as simple as that, yes. That is normally how I have though except for the when the ppl involved do not appear to care about the consequences.  The term "reap what you have sown" or it "coming back to bite you" come to mind when someone "suffers" for what they have done even though they didn’t care about the negatively that they put out there. It is possible that ppl can avoid consequences by those around them for any variety of reasons. I think we see that happening all the time.  Those that believe in karma might string together unrelated situations, however, to provide punishment for an action that wasn’t so clear cut.  The fact that one spread rumours about a co-worker might be linked with the fact that the person’s car broke down on the way home that day.  My own belief is that the car would have broken down anyway but there are plenty that don’t hold my same belief. *nods* I have a tendency to not believe in coincidences however I do see what you are saying and agree that ppl who do believe in strongly in the notion of karma do tend to string things together that may have nothing to do with the situation at hand. If there was a such thing as cosmic karma than more ppl would suffer the consequences of their behaviors rather than having them buffered by other things. There are considerable implications in any proposed karmic system, in the way of reward and punishment.  In my experience those occurances labeled as karma could be merely the inevitable consequences of certain behaviors. In other words, act like a bully long enough and somebody bigger than you is gonna come along and kick your ass … hehe. Very true!  But why does the bigger bully come along and kick your ass?

Simple statistics.  As my mama always said … there’s always somebody bigger.  Well, maybe not always but I’m sure you get the drift.  And if someone bigger doesn’t come along, perhaps one or more of the smaller ones will figure out some other way to bring the bigger one down.  That part is merely human nature. Why do some bullies get their asses kicked and others do not?

It could be any variety of factors.  A small sample size, the cessation of bully-ish behavior prior to getting their ass kicked, adjusting their techniques to meet newer challenges, etc.  I still believe their "fall" would be inevitable, were they to continue the behavior long enough. Probably a key reason why dictatorships never last forever … hehe.  Where is the Roman Empire these days?  That took a while, provided, but they’re long gone now.  Would that be karma or would it simply be the inevitable consequence of trying to rule too many people for too long in too many places? Inevitable consequence…what is inevitable, I wonder

Again, I believe it is a mixture of human nature and statistics.  Let’s use stealing from an employer as a better example (this is my favorite example so I use it over and over again … hehe). If an employee steals from their employer once, there would be a certain statistical probability that they would be caught.  Each and every time they steal in the future, it is more and more likely that they will be caught. Can’t buck the odds forever. Working along with this are certain other external factors that affect the original probability.  The work environment may change via process improvement or more attentive co-workers.  This would make it far more likely that the thief was caught sometime in the future. Finally, it is an unfortunate reality of human nature that a successful criminal typically gets a "I can get away with anything" complex.  Someone who steals a box of pens one week, may eventually move on to more expensive items.  This attitude may also dictate their becoming careless in their future criminal activity.  Either one would also tip the scales of probability. These are just my ramblings … don’t know if they make sense to anyone else. Figinn

Response:

Most people tend to look at the concept through the westernized, christianized notion of guilt and punishment. Karma in it’s proper form is mostly a catalogue of  *what you learned* in a given lifetime. Not just learned , but how you developed in regards to your journey towards Nirvana. So if you don’t believe in Nirvana, why bother with Karma?

In the form you’ve described I don’t bother with karma either. Particularly in regards to guilt.  However I have gone so far as to think that if a person has enough individual guilt over something they may put out enough guilt energy that would perhaps effect other areas of their lives. Perhaps the guilt was warranted and the negativity brought about by said guilt maybe deserved or it may not be. Oh, and smootch, True.

*laughs and smooches* Missed ya babe! — True "If guns are outlawed can we use swords instead?"

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – | | | <snip | | It seems to me that you’re concerned about someone potentially | "getting away" with some negative action. All I can say to that is we | each live the life we choose, and that includes the 1st choice – to | incarnate. | | Is it your belief that beings choose when and how to incarnate?  How does | that work?  Is it restricted to humans? | | I’ve heard such an idea before but never really had it explained to me well. | | I don’t know Just leave it at that- you don’t. Stop trying to foist your bullshit off on people. In this particular case, I asked for his opinion … no foisting required. Figinn

You have to remember that fOt is still tied into the xtian idea of a single incarnation, and can’t discuss "karma" from any other mindset. Jani

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey! | While I’ve been ARW AWOL I’ve had time to contemplate some things and on my | return thought I’d put my wonderings out there for….comments | Personally I do not believe in cosmic karma, I believe that karma is | self-created either through guilt (for example) or more positive emotions | (for good karma).  If someone does not believe in karma how does one feel | the effect of something negative or irresponsible that they have done. Is | it as simple as living with the consequences?  It is possible that ppl can | avoid consequences by those around them for any variety of reasons.  If | there was a such thing as cosmic karma than more ppl would suffer the | consequences of their behaviors rather than having them buffered by other | things. | | Not sure if this made totally sense, my thoughts on this are a bit muddy. | Of course I had the sound judgment that taking it here would clear it up! | *laughs and winks* There is no such thing as karma. Serial killers are unscathed, kids die of cancer, emergency doctors don’t live any longer on average than people who drink. There is no such thing as karma

It does seem that cruel things happen to good ppl.  But there are cases where ppl do suffer the consequences for their behaviors.  Perhaps it’s a concentration of will both for good or ill, given the situation? — True "If guns are outlawed can we use swords instead?"

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – While I’ve been ARW AWOL I’ve had time to contemplate some things and on my return thought I’d put my wonderings out there for….comments Personally I do not believe in cosmic karma, I believe that karma is self-created either through guilt (for example) or more positive emotions (for good karma).  If someone does not believe in karma how does one feel the effect of something negative or irresponsible that they have done. Is it as simple as living with the consequences?  It is possible that ppl can avoid consequences by those around them for any variety of reasons.  If there was a such thing as cosmic karma than more ppl would suffer the consequences of their behaviors rather than having them buffered by other things. For starters, True, I’d throw out the term Karma. What you’re describing is not a karmic issue. Karma, as a Hindu concept, has to do more with knowing your place in the world, as opposed to the New Age mis-appropriation of that word.

I’ll have to look into the Hindu meaning of the word more closely.  I think my confusion has been generated from the fact that "karma" seems to have so many meanings to ppl and that I think that you’re right in that it’s been mis-appropriated. It seems to me that you’re concerned about someone potentially "getting away" with some negative action. All I can say to that is we each live the life we choose, and that includes the 1st choice – to incarnate. Every choice we make has an effect. Sometimes those effects are not known immediately. Sometimes it takes years for an effect to be discerned. Perhaps a conscious recognition will never occur. And that just has to do with your own awareness, or lack thereof. If you’re concerned about the actions of another…, forget it. You may never know if they "escaped" or not.

You’re right, it’s just difficult to stand aside at times.  I think the thing I have the hardest time with is the fact that conscious recognition may never happen and my sense of justice gets annoyed (for lack of a better word).  But you’re right…I must accept that I may never know. — True "If guns are outlawed can we use swords instead?"

Response:

TRUE! Ive missed ya. Its me, Earles. Ive missed you oh so much. How have you been, m’lady?

Hi hon, I’ve been very busy, lots of life changes, not all bad either…yay!  How have you been? — True "If guns are outlawed can we use swords instead?"

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In article, True writes While I’ve been ARW AWOL I’ve had time to contemplate some things and on my return thought I’d put my wonderings out there for….comments Personally I do not believe in cosmic karma, I believe that karma is self-created either through guilt (for example) or more positive emotions (for good karma).  If someone does not believe in karma how does one feel the effect of something negative or irresponsible that they have done. Is it as simple as living with the consequences?  It is possible that ppl can avoid consequences by those around them for any variety of reasons.  If there was a such thing as cosmic karma than more ppl would suffer the consequences of their behaviors rather than having them buffered by other things. Not sure if this made totally sense, my thoughts on this are a bit muddy. Of course I had the sound judgment that taking it here would clear it up! *laughs and winks* I don’t believe in Karma. Basically no one promised life would a bed of roses… Basically good things happen, and bad things happen, If your learning how to be human a fair amount of both are needed. I can get very bored with people who spend hours telling me what lousy karma they have, and they wonder why… They never do anything but complain… If some god were giving you a hard time for something you did in a previous life, that you don’t remember, I cant see the point, If your being punished then you need to know what your being punished for. Anything other than that is injustice. For me life is a learning experience, and you learn through good and bad things happening to you. I have often found at the end of a very bad patch, I look back and think well if that had not happened I wouldn’t be in the good position I am in today.. I think more often than not its life booting you in the backside, and saying get up you have more to learn, and a new path to walk.

Personally this is how I apply the notion to my own life.  The stumbling block is watching other ppl making mistakes that hurt other ppl and not seeming to learn or to think they have done anything wrong.  They are convinced that they have done no wrong and continue on in their hurtful behavior, often supported by others who choose to not seek the truth but believe whatever they see or are allowed to see.  Typically this hasn’t been an issue for me as I’ve had a live and let live attitude but of recent there has been more than one occasion where I have wanted to shake some ppl around me so that they can see what their behavior is doing to others.  It’s easier to sit back when it’s not effecting someone you care about.  Ahhh well back to my ponderings — True "If guns are outlawed can we use swords instead?"

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – While I’ve been ARW AWOL I’ve had time to contemplate some things and on my return thought I’d put my wonderings out there for….comments Personally I do not believe in cosmic karma, I believe that karma is self-created either through guilt (for example) or more positive emotions (for good karma).  If someone does not believe in karma how does one feel the effect of something negative or irresponsible that they have done. Is it as simple as living with the consequences?  It is possible that ppl can avoid consequences by those around them for any variety of reasons.  If there was a such thing as cosmic karma than more ppl would suffer the consequences of their behaviors rather than having them buffered by other things. Welcome back, True!

Thanks, good to be back I can’t say I’ve contemplated karma over much, though from what I can tell, I think people have recognized a pattern and merely called it ‘karma’. I think ‘karma’ is nothing more than cause and effect. But, I can’t say this is something I’ve thought long and hard about, so there’s a distinct possibility that my reasoning could be found to be flawed upon closer inspection.

I think that my idea of karma is similar to your "cause and effect" in it’s simplest forms.  I have issues with ppl not having to deal with the consequences of their actions, however I guess no matter what happens they are effected in some form or another.  For me, lately, it’s been that my sense of justice does not feel as though it’s being met.  But I guess I have to look closely at my motivations for wanting said justice. — True "If guns are outlawed can we use swords instead?"

Response:

| | While I’ve been ARW AWOL I’ve had time to contemplate some things and on my | return thought I’d put my wonderings out there for….comments | Personally I do not believe in cosmic karma, I believe that karma is | self-created either through guilt (for example) or more positive emotions | (for good karma).  If someone does not believe in karma how does one feel | the effect of something negative or irresponsible that they have done. Is | it as simple as living with the consequences?  It is possible that ppl can | avoid consequences by those around them for any variety of reasons.  If | there was a such thing as cosmic karma than more ppl would suffer the | consequenses of their behaviors rather than having them buffered by other | things. | | For starters, True, I’d throw out the term Karma. What you’re | describing is not a karmic issue. Karma, as a Hindu concept, has to do | more with knowing your place in the world, as opposed to the New Age | mis-appropriation of that word. | | It seems to me that you’re concerned about someone potentially | "getting away" with some negative action. All I can say to that is we | each live the life we choose, and that includes the 1st choice – to | incarnate. Every choice we make has an effect. Sometimes those effects | are not known immediately. Sometimes it takes years for an effect to | be discerned. Perhaps a conscious recognition will never occur. And | that just has to do with your own awareness, or lack thereof. If | you’re concerned about the actions of another…, forget it. You may | never know if they "escaped" or not. Just shut the fuck up — Talesin- The Bad Boy of Witchcraft ™ "The sound of Howard Stern’s silence is the death rattle for free speech." Fight for your rights- register to vote  http://www.declareyourself.com/